This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. The fire never went out. This is the third entry in a three-part series deconstructing popular illustrations that pastors give their congregations, all of which might sound good or spiritual, but do not correspond to history or reality. This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. What church are you talking about? It is translated "hell" every time. So just imagine the hundreds of thousands of squirmy, wormy maggots living there, eating the rotting refuse. What the text clearly says is that Sodom serves as an example linked to those suffering in eternal fire. Some people use this historical tidbit to make a point either to paint a picture how foul, vivid and terrible hell would be, or alternately to suggest that there is no eternal hell, and the references Jesus makes to the fires of hell and torment was simply a reference to this burning trash pile. Rather, god gives the gift of immortality to the saved only per apostle Paul. Another portion of the ravine became a cesspool receiving the . The New Jerusalem will contain people body and soul living in space in time, with God in happiness for all eternity. Where is the record of an uproar over them? Rome? (And note: it's a parable, a story with a lesson, not necessarily a description of actual conditions in the after-life, especially when you become too technical. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will.]. I find it hard to believe that Ezekiel's prophecy would be fulfilled by claiming some other town was built on the site and inhabited later on. And that's probably what Jerome is after, distinguishing between this end-less but not time-less eternity and the God's eternity without such constraints, wihtout beginning or end. "Gehenna (Gei Hinnom) became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, . There is a emergent/universalist writer named Sharon Baker who has a book called Razing Hell. If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. For more details, see copyright information. He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? Hell fire, Gehenna the garbage dump with its constantly burning fire. Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. Lambs? That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. The only exception was the 5th Ecumenical Council (around 550), which posthumously condemned not just (some or all) teachings of Theodorus and of Origen but condemned them personally. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation. As for giving the 'damned' (an English word that has changed in meaning since being put in English bibles) their 'just desserts', in Jesus' day there were two common words for what we think of as "punishment". These words can be used to describe something that is eternal, but this meaning has to be derived from the object they are used in conjunction with. It doesn't matter what we think! It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. Romans 11: "mercy to all" doesn't mean all accept it. But if they happened to return next week, would that mean that sinners from Sodom would not be punished for their sins? When death is destroyed the only thing left is life. Its fires were kept continually burning (an everlasting lake of fire!) In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbageimagine the vile vision. You see, there is a difference between "material" heresy and "formal" heresy the former is error in contents, which might as well be unwitting, the latter is the obstinate insistance on such an error. ELeeMacFall 6 yr. ago The soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever and ever and ever. And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. Everything! There is a lot of other stuff about fallen spirits changing form, etc., that makes it understandable how he would get into trouble. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation. The Gray Waste (more fully, the Gray Wastes of Hades; also, Hades, The Three Glooms, Hope's Loss or The Nadir) is a strongly neutral evil aligned plane of existence. Bell says, Gehenna, in Jesus's day, was the city dump People tossed their garbage and waste into this valley. Is that decree retroactive?". Gehenna Gehenna is the plane of suspicion and greed. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. valleys of the sons of Hinnom. You are simply ignoring these. "if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. This message has a warning for everyone today, but especially Christian leaders. 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed. DIANA is a world leader in natural functional solutions for the food, pet food, nutraceuticals, aquaculture and cosmetics industries, and technology leader in plant cell culture, dedicated to the production of active ingredients for food, cosmetics and health. See Joachim Jeremias Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, p. 44. (the Romans emphasized justice and were very PROUD of their legal system) I had heard sermons for 40 years, had read the bible cover to cover several times, went to bible studies, listened to countless teaching tapes, and in all that time no one, myself included, noticed any contradiction between Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:55. From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. In the other dozen or so, to get the idea of "eternal" you have to read it into the words "aion" and "aionian". A Christian in error is still a Christian. You are confusing the matters under discussion at the time whith what others wrote at other times. Gehenna was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem. Thank you. You are also disrespectful towards the damned it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. if you use the NIV version of the Bible the words "and shut out" are not in the Greek, rather just the preposition "from"). Marcos you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, his hearers would think of the valley of rotting, worm-infested garbage, where the fire always burned, smoke always lingered, and if the wind blew just right, a smell that sickened the sense wafted in the air. (pp. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. God is not a torturer. I confused the council of Nicea with the Nicene Creed that came out of the council at Constantinople later on. The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! 1. garbage dump - a piece of land where waste materials are dumped. It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. "After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now.". "At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". activies, not statements of faith). If ALL will be made alive than any passage referring to future punishment MUST be viewed in light of that fact. Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. If not there, where? Jerome is one, Christ may be another. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. When a fire is not quenched it burns UNTIL IT RUNS OUT OF FUEL. On three occasions, gehenna is paired with (G4442, pyr, "fire") to read "hell fire" (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9; Mark 9:47). Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. I believe you need to be alive to feel the effects of punishment. Gey Ben Hinnom Stream. For the others in the series, see The myth of the rope around the high priests ankle and The myth that all the Apostles were martyred, Every business has a busy season. Consider this myth to be thoroughly debunked. It does not need to be quenched. Blot them out of existence? In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. I had no idea that the Old Testament provides ample evidence for why the New Testament associates Gehenna with the abode of the damned. It might have been just as well to not press it. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? Gray land and gray sky throughout, with no sun . For all those who think that the 2 times eternal in Mat.25:46 must be the same is talking nonsense,in 5 other verses it also happens and in those it cannot be the same at all.Romans 16:25-26 and Titus 1:2 and Galatians 1:4-5 and Ephesians 3:9-11 and 1 Timothes 6:17-19 So how you explain that hell is pagan nonsense God is love!!! And why should it? All who accept it. There was not a trash pile perpetually burning. Theres nothing before that. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? Thanks for posting. Your idea about "universal salvation" among church fathers is wrongheaded. I find the scriptures remarkable, and you, sir, have nailed these difficult questions to the cross itself. And Christ spoke (e.g. Spare us your pseudo-physics which can teach us nothing about the afterlife in the New Jerusalem. At the same time, I hope you will believe me that the vast majority of Christians you believe in things like eternal salvation and damnation are not motivated by any joy in seeing other people suffer but by respect for Christ's teaching, Christ's judgement and for other people's freedom of choice. 66:24 says "The THEY SHALL GO FORTH". Put simply, there is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a perpetually burning garbage dump. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. They ignore the nature of both worms and fire to protect their doctrine of an eternal hell. Living I think what you heard was in reference to the Kidron Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the eastern side. [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. So "time" as we know it is not eternal. I've always thought that this was an established fact. It is never used by Jesus, and is only found in three places in the new testament, Acts 22:5 and 26:11 where Paul is talking about his 'punishment' of Christians before his conversion, and in Hebrews 10:29 where the context again is between those who adhere to the old covenant in opposition to the new, only this time the tables are turned. This article is more additional proof against the doctrine of eternal torment. In Isaiah 30:33, it is referred to as Topheth, a horrible, fearsome place: "Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream . Gehenna was not a perpetually burning trash dump." . Uhh no. En contraire. It was an interesting article and I am glad that you were not trying to disprove eternal punishment though at least one person wanted to think otherwise. and rules called canons. The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. You would think this would have been addressed early on if the case was clear cut and universal salvation was heresy. Kent thank you for your comment. We can trace the develope a transition of the place of the dead from a pit to a water filled pit and then to similar with fire. ", No one. Those who WOULD. Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. God refers to it as the "valley of slaughter" in Jeremiah 7:31 and in Jeremiah 19:2-6, a place of ruin and disaster.. (the only other times 'dogs' 'tables' and 'crumbs of bread' are mentioned is in the context of a gentile asking Jesus for help. Gehenna In Hebrew Scriptures After the Baylonian exile (6 th cent BCE) A garbage dump in a deep narrow valley outside the wall of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse. In the case of life age-during, that life is with God, who is eternal. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. Who is ignoring the context? The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. What church are you talking about? Mark 9:45. There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. Much less towards others with "universalist" leanings. That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. Everything is all tied together in one. As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. Why would anyone, especially people who are redeemed and survive the coming of the Lord to judge all flesh (v.16) want to go out to look at corpses full of worms and burning? It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation.". (v.23), "Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies?". I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. But "the flesh" has nothing to dod with worms and fire. If this parable is supposed to teach anything about punishment in the afterlife, you would think that this gulf would not be necessary. Most did not. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! The fire never went out. Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom"), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. First, you still seem to think you are in a position to lecture Christ on how to conduct his affairs. One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! People also ignore the context of what Jesus is talking about. But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet. After the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, the valley became a garbage dump where anything considered unclean was placed. Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. After all, Samaria did not return either but found successors that, though unconneceted with the northern kingdom, called themselves Samaritans. When they fought, their teeth would make a gnashing sound. The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. Ezekiel doesn't utter any either and he doesn't even touch on anything linked to "eternal fire". [Are you serious? From "The Fires of Gehenna: View of Scholars" by Todd Bolen, "The first is Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. The Pharisees commonly used the phrase 'endless timoria', which has nothing to do with bettering the victim, but the punishment only has the satisfaction and honor of the offended party in mind. . Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God. It is also very instructive to study the writings of the early church fathers and church history to see how prevalent a belief universal salvation was, and then compare the conditions that surrounded the second council at Constantinople where they decided that a confession of belief in an eternal hell was one of the conditions for being accepted into "the church". Because the Hinnom and Kidron Valleys are located on the southeast side of Jerusalem, the prevailing winds carry the winds away from the city. Where are you getting this? As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. He must be alive. Isaiah 66:15-16 makes it pretty clear when the context of the rest of the chapter takes place. Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. "You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. Rather than restate much that has been said before, let me just point you and any interested readers to a couple of articles on the issue of eternal punishment (which was not the subject of this post). You cannot base yourself on the supposed "true" meaning of a word Jesus used while at the same time ignoring that he also spoke of eternal punishment. I don't see why a citizen of God's city should go out, but if they did, they might well see that. This is then used as an example of a future judgment. Your email address will not be published. The common view today is that Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem. In v.15-16 it seems pretty clear the context of this passage is a universal judgment on all flesh. "Saint" doesn't mean infallible, you know! The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. If the trash dump was burning or not - I don't know. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught. Now I know why I never found any. Can you confirm whether this was traditional practice? That is not a wonderful promise, that is a concept more horrific and disturbing than anything any horror writer could come up with. The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. A parable directed at the Jews returned from the reign of Josiah onward it... 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